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available for all uses down stream including to the Delta. RINNE: A counterpoint. The projections over the next 15 to 20 years show and suggest there is good probability of continued periods of excess flows. Going back to the idea of if there were no Glen Canyon Dam, I was a little surprised when I looked at the effects of what that really means to the Delta. It does meet some gains. But I'm not sure that the gains are quite as significant as Pam is saying, especially if you're assuming some sort of a balancing act to operate the system, to meet other needs and to provide flood control to some reasonable amounts. I think it's fairly challenging. TuRNEY: Just as a word of caution about getting the state involved with another country. This is exceedingly difficult. If you're going to have any Upper Basin or Lower Basin state, for that matter, get involved with the country of Mexico, you better have some deep pockets and lots of resources to carry it out. We see it on the Rio Grande. We now have Juarez approaching us to use that water. Once you start getting into cities and local politics and you start getting into Mexico City politics and issues, I can tell you that it takes up an enormous amount of time. You better have enough staff dedicated to work on this kind of an issue. SNAPE: I don't disagree with what Tom just said, but the whole concept of a treaty amendment or a new agreement would necessitate that the federal government be in the lead. I don't discount the fact that there would obviously be negotiations that involve the states. But the federal government, the State Department and the Department of the Interior would be leading the charge. TuRNEY: I agree with that. QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE: Herb Guenther, Arizona. I want you to know I had a very productive night last night and overnight I matured and I left puberty and I am now a responsible adult and having reflected on my needs, I have come to the conclusion is that one of my basic needs is to have a bonytail chub. But anyway, I'd like to deal with a question about the natural hydrograph. A biological given is that we really can't get too far outside because biology tends to have bounds with regard to recruitment or perdition. Given the fact that we have many, many introduced species on the Colorado system and given the fact that they playa significant role in competi- tion with the native species, especially the Colorado River fishes that we would like to recover. But if we go to a natural hydrograph, biologically, it would appear to me that we would tend to increase the favor to the non-natives as opposed to the natives. Inas- much as the muddied waters, the turbid water would favor the ictalurus, the catfish, who are already significant predators on the native recruitment, the rising and falling waters, as well as the muddied waters, and especially the warmer waters, would favor the centroristes, or the bass. The higher flows would favor the striped bass. My question is: Where are we going to go with this natural hydrograph inasmuch as these introduced species are a very significant component with regard to preventing the recruitment of native species? SWAN: Herb, you've been studying biology in your spare time. Who wants to take on the challenge? HYDE: I think Bob Muth actually pointed this out: You can't disassociate other issues from the issue of a natural hydrograph in terms of restoration or recovery. The issue of non-native fish species is a difficult one. Clearly there were non-natives in the system before the dams were built and they were causing problems for the native fish so the natural hydrograph is not a cure-all for some of these environmental problems. I will be the first one to admit that. But, I am not sure I necessarily agree that restoring a natural hydrograph would tend to favor the non- natives. There are certain non-natives that do well in those same conditions but certainly, it would reduce some of the stresses to some of the populations of some of the native fishes. Some of them are stressed now by cold water, by clear water, by lack of habitat. The idea of a natural hydro graph is not only that you have higher amounts of water at certain times, lower at others and sediment load in it, but that it also helps recreate some of the natural stream side habitats that were part of what those native fish used. So it's only one element in an overall recovery effort. I've been a strong proponent of the fact that we do need to address the non-native fish problem. We need to get into some more research and development of things like selective fish poisons that potentially could be used so that you don't have to actually clear out a stream of all the native fish, go through with a non- selective fish poison and hope that you can put the natives back in afterwards. There have been some problems with fish poisonings throughout the West. THE BALANCI NG ACT SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS SEPTEMBER 1999 o