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THE BALANCI NG ACT We need to fix some of those problems. Part of the problem is we have stakeholders within the basin that value some of those non-native fish and so we have to deal with that as well, that's definitely part of the equation. But the point is, we need to go at this from a number of different prongs. The natural hydro graph is definitely one. Dealing with non-native fish is definitely another. SNAPE: Very quick footnote. Wendell Minkley, who I think you know, Herb, is one of the leading fish experts in the lower stretch. I think his concept of native fish refugia is at least in part dependent on a flood regime that at least partly mimics the natural hydrograph. I think that's only one part of the answer but at least the leading fish expert believes you need to have more of a natural hydro graph seeping back into the system. PALMER: There's a big difference between a little bit of the natural hydro graph and the natural hydro graph. And that's an important distinction with respect to the idea of balancing needs. Not terribly long ago, I was conversing with one of the Upper Basin biologists, Richard Valdez, who told me a story about sitting in a boat in the evening, in the twilight of the day, and looking across the Green River and seeing what appeared to be a grass field in the middle of the river. It wasn't a grass field. It was the little whiskers from the channel catfish who were so numerous that it made the river look like a grass field. In the Upper Basin, 98 percent, I forget, Bob can help me with that, of the fish are exotic fish. One man's scenery is another man's - Comment from the Audience ecosystem. SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS SEPTEMBER 1999 ~ MUTH: Do you mean percent-wise or number- wise? PALMER: No, percent-wise. Is it close to that? OK, that issue needs to be dealt with. I think it has had less attention up until recent years because the focus has been on a need to re-operate the dam in order to achieve something more closely resembling a natural hydro graph. In the Glen Canyon experiment, so far the negotiations have not been about the idea of, "Let's achieve a natural hydro graph" but rather, "Let's restore a certain amount of disturbance, let's achieve or try to accomplish a certain amount of restoration of the dynamisity that used to occur and achieve our goals this way." I think it's a lot more useful for us to talk about operating federal facilities and taking other actions to achieve specific goals rather than to overlay the whole idea with "Let's return to the natural hydrograph. QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE: My congratulations with what you just brought to this meeting. I think it's very, very interesting. I would like to say first that the balance that we are looking for is kind of hard. To me, it is a very dynamic process. We might try to the ground or to heaven. It's up to us, whatever we would like to try this dynamic process of the balance, it's not such a thing as balance is something very dynamic. On the other hand, remember California, Arizona, and I don't know how many other states used to belong to Mexico. And now we are begging for water. A little bit of water for the Delta and that's something which, for us, the Mexicans, feel was taken by the weight of the force, money and weapons. Those states used to belong to us. And now, we are begging for water for the Delta and that is something that really makes us feel poorly. But I know there is a very interesting process that been happening with the U.S. people. The u.s. people are becoming more and more conscious and more open to other issues rather than those in their own country. Selfishness has been the way you behave, to keep the water to be secure. That's the way to fear. Fear makes you do all these things to nature and sometimes you don't keep your eyes open for the Indian nations, for Mexico, or for the environment. That's why we are facing these problems. Perhaps it's time to have an international research institution to propose the difficult answer like Pamela says to look for a better options, more sustainable options for the use of water. There is a technology. The main use of the water should not be only for the United States. Conservation is being looked at, too, as a way to provide more water. Farmers are paying more attention to how much water they are using, and are having very nice crops. RINNE: Both countries have actually sat down and talked a little about data gaps and information and what type of studies might be done. The next step would be trying to figure out where you might apply that along options for longer term restoration efforts. I do believe there's a sensitivity there and I know that the wheels turn slowly. It may be one of those necessary things that we have to do but I think it has