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34 <br />1 here. <br />' 2 The issue is to decide whether or not this is a current <br /> 3 violation. Whether it's--it's this is a current violation that <br />' 4 is an ongoing violation maybe that's already been decided. <br /> 5 CHAIRMAN DANIELSON: Frank, I don't know. I guess my <br />' 6 reaction is that is an issue that we haven't reached yet and we <br />' 7 don't need to reach in this proceedings and that becomes relevant <br /> 8 only in the context of the permit amended but it does beg the <br />' 9 question of when we are going to address. And I--like the other <br /> 10 cited case--I think, though, the evidence must come in this case, <br />' 11 this is the case that the evidence record concerning the <br />' 12 violation and it would be appropriate. <br /> 13 MR. COOLEY: Well, would there be any question if they <br />' 14 are in violation they are in violation. <br /> 15 MS. KAEGER-ROVEY: Yeah, but I thought that is why I <br />' 16 thought we said it doesn't need to cease and desist order. <br />' 17 MR. O'CONNOR: Well, they are in violation until they <br /> 18 take adjudicative action. <br /> 19 CHAIRMAN DANIELSON: Are you sure of that? I am not <br /> 20 convinced of that. If it is currently in violation. If somebody <br />' 21 dumped something in the creek and we could find him in <br /> 22 violation, we can issue a civil penalty, does that mean he is in <br />' <br /> 23 violation today if he dumps something in the creek last week? <br />' 24 MR. O'CONNOR: To me it's until he gets out of there. <br /> <br />1 25 CHAIRMAN DANIELSON: I am not sure of that but if you <br />